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 Post subject: Re: Story Ideas: Church of Blood
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:49 pm 
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I've been thinking over what you last posted:

1. With what you said about the clergy occasionally leaving for battle. Given this is Trigon we're talking about, it'd make sense that blood taken unwillingly is much more potent -- both in terms of fuelling powers and the 'high' it'd provide -- than that given willingly by church devotees, with that taken in combat being even more powerful in both respects. So, there are members of the clergy willing to put their safety aside to fulfil the squad leader role outside of Zandia for the reward of this blood being taken in the name of Trigon.

2. I'm not necessarily sure one power and hey-o, pure evil is the best of ideas. Pure evil is the most boring kind, after all. You could argue that having soldiers with one power is a danger in and of itself, because: it makes that soldier -- and the others around him -- that much strong; gives him a lot of room for improvement, given he's got only one power to practice with; and it leaves him with his own free, though influenced, will. Perhaps the clergy/higher ups/ would push for more powers, and more exposure to, what, Trigon's blood, because then the free will of the person is entirely suppressed as they become an avatar of Trigon, with his will taking precedence over their own, and only very few unimaginably strong willed people able to resist while away from the blood (in the entire DC universe that I know of, I'm thinking of Batman, Slade, Raven, maybe Robin). The only thing is, while an Avatar, they need that blood to survive. So they have to remain loyal to the church, whether they wish to or not. They can't leave Zandia, or do so without clergymen there to provide blood, and hope to survive.

Just some thoughts because I'm finally in on this, YO!

EDIT: Errors of spelling and grammar.

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 Post subject: Re: Story Ideas: Church of Blood
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:35 am 
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Shoot, haven't posted in a while. Better get back into it now:

Loki Kola wrote:
With what you said about the clergy occasionally leaving for battle. Given this is Trigon we're talking about, it'd make sense that blood taken unwillingly is much more potent -- both in terms of fuelling powers and the 'high' it'd provide -- than that given willingly by church devotees, with that taken in combat being even more powerful in both respects. So, there are members of the clergy willing to put their safety aside to fulfil the squad leader role outside of Zandia for the reward of this blood being taken in the name of Trigon.


You just hit a nail on the head. ;) Fits perfectly with the demonic Church of Blood and Trigon's sadistic character. It would be a good idea to think about what else they could do with this blood magic, which is a horrifying thought. Reminds me a bit of a game I used to play called Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines, where you could play as different classes of vampire, and one of them was a sorcerer type (Tremere) that used blood magic (thaumaturgy) to steal blood to regenerate, make a shield or just boil it up inside an enemy until it exploded. There was an even more vile type of vampire in there called a Tzimisce as an antagonist in the game, who not only used blood magic, but also used fleshcrafting (yes, it's as squickish as it sounds :shock: ) to create all sorts of monstrosities, and there are aspects of the Tzimisce vampire clan that would work well with Father Furor's character.

Loki Kola wrote:
I'm not necessarily sure one power and hey-o, pure evil is the best of ideas. Pure evil is the most boring kind, after all.


True. I had reasoned initially that such exposure to the power of Trigon would be absolutely corrupting. But then I remembered Raven, who has been swimming in Trigon's power from birth, and yet she has a strong sense of ethics; in the comics, she is described as trying to "live life like a saint." So, complete corruption is kinda out the window, eh?
Or perhaps not; she still has a cruel demonic personality bubbling under the surface that is held in check because the monks of Azarath taught her how to handle it at a young age. Trigon's disciples in the Church have no such training, and would instead be taught to embrace his power.

Loki Kola wrote:
You could argue that having soldiers with one power is a danger in and of itself, because: it makes that soldier -- and the others around him -- that much strong; gives him a lot of room for improvement, given he's got only one power to practice with; and it leaves him with his own free, though influenced, will.


I thought of having the best soldiers loyal to Furor gaining special powers as part of Furor's plans for an eventual takeover of the Church, where he can use them to enforce his new order once the Bloods are out of the way. The idea of the soldiers gaining more power and destabilising the old order of things in the Church is kind of the point. Also, free but "influenced" will is not true free will at all, is it?

Loki Kola wrote:
Perhaps the clergy/higher ups/ would push for more powers, and more exposure to, what, Trigon's blood, because then the free will of the person is entirely suppressed as they become an avatar of Trigon, with his will taking precedence over their own, and only very few unimaginably strong willed people able to resist while away from the blood (in the entire DC universe that I know of, I'm thinking of Batman, Slade, Raven, maybe Robin). The only thing is, while an Avatar, they need that blood to survive. So they have to remain loyal to the church, whether they wish to or not.


I hadn't thought of this, but it is brilliant Loki! The idea of the dependency on blood from Zandia is a powerful tool which both empowers, yet ironically also makes the person even more enslaved to the will of Trigon and the Church. No doubt Furor could take advantage of this to convert the clergy, but then again, it is also creating more puppets directly influenced/controlled by Trigon, who may have other ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: Story Ideas: Church of Blood
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:00 am 
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snowman1989 wrote:
Also, free but "influenced" will is not true free will at all, is it?


Well, it can be, in both real life and fiction; it is also an established nuance in fiction.

[Reveal] Spoiler: For those who've neither seen nor read LoTR
Remember The Lord of the Rings? Frodo spends the entire trilogy resisting the influence of the One Ring, only to eventually fall to it and be saved only by the self-interested intervention of Gollum, who bites off Frodo's finger and plunges into Mount Doom alongside his 'precious'.


[Reveal] Spoiler: Star Wars this time
There's also Star Wars, where the dark side of the force can influence someone while neither directly controlling them nor removing their free will. Luke Skywalker and Anakin Skywalker both felt the dark side's influence, but only Anakin ended up falling to it and becoming Darth Vader. Even then, the dark side did not directly control him, although it causes him to become the embodiment of fear, anger, hate, and suffering.


Heck, in the established Teen Titans and DC canon you even have Raven's will being influenced, and sometime supplanted, by the taint of her demonic heritage. She's got her own free will and wants to live a paragon, but cannot escape from Trigon. Having someone be influenced by something powerful within is kind of like having them be influenced by something powerful outside of them. Say Trigon had the church of blood kidnap somebody's daughter and force them to cooperate. The effect would be the same if they'd had minor exposure to his blood. He'd be able to exert some pressure on their mind, body, and soul, but they wouldn't literally be drowning in his influence like they'd be if they were an avatar. They would still be able, were they strong enough, to say "no".

Loki Kola wrote:
I hadn't thought of this, but it is brilliant Loki! The idea of the dependency on blood from Zandia is a powerful tool which both empowers, yet ironically also makes the person even more enslaved to the will of Trigon and the Church. No doubt Furor could take advantage of this to convert the clergy, but then again, it is also creating more puppets directly influenced/controlled by Trigon, who may have other ideas.


Yeah. Avatars of Trigon would be, essentially, Trigon on Earth. They'd be extensions of his will, and so carry out his will above all others. What Trigon wills may include, for the time being, indulging Father Furor.

Also, as a point, imagine how disastrous it'd be if an Avatar came into contact with Raven, who is arguably herself the strongest Avatar of all.

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 Post subject: Re: Story Ideas: Church of Blood
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:55 pm 
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Loki Kola wrote:
snowman1989 wrote:
Also, free but "influenced" will is not true free will at all, is it?

Well, it can be, in both real life and fiction; it is also an established nuance in fiction.

[Reveal] Spoiler: For those who've neither seen nor read LoTR
Remember The Lord of the Rings? Frodo spends the entire trilogy resisting the influence of the One Ring, only to eventually fall to it and be saved only by the self-interested intervention of Gollum, who bites off Frodo's finger and plunges into Mount Doom alongside his 'precious'.


[Reveal] Spoiler: Star Wars this time
There's also Star Wars, where the dark side of the force can influence someone while neither directly controlling them nor removing their free will. Luke Skywalker and Anakin Skywalker both felt the dark side's influence, but only Anakin ended up falling to it and becoming Darth Vader. Even then, the dark side did not directly control him, although it causes him to become the embodiment of fear, anger, hate, and suffering.


Heck, in the established Teen Titans and DC canon you even have Raven's will being influenced, and sometime supplanted, by the taint of her demonic heritage. She's got her own free will and wants to live a paragon, but cannot escape from Trigon. Having someone be influenced by something powerful within is kind of like having them be influenced by something powerful outside of them. Say Trigon had the church of blood kidnap somebody's daughter and force them to cooperate. The effect would be the same if they'd had minor exposure to his blood. He'd be able to exert some pressure on their mind, body, and soul, but they wouldn't literally be drowning in his influence like they'd be if they were an avatar. They would still be able, were they strong enough, to say "no".
This is an interesting idea and it is also one that is entirely consistent with Brother Blood's cult leader persona in both the comics and the TV series, as well as his demonstrated ability to dominate the wills of others. Perhaps these ideas could be combined somehow.

Loki Kola wrote:
snowman1989 wrote:
I hadn't thought of this, but it is brilliant Loki! The idea of the dependency on blood from Zandia is a powerful tool which both empowers, yet ironically also makes the person even more enslaved to the will of Trigon and the Church. No doubt Furor could take advantage of this to convert the clergy, but then again, it is also creating more puppets directly influenced/controlled by Trigon, who may have other ideas.


Yeah. Avatars of Trigon would be, essentially, Trigon on Earth. They'd be extensions of his will, and so carry out his will above all others. What Trigon wills may include, for the time being, indulging Father Furor.

Also, as a point, imagine how disastrous it'd be if an Avatar came into contact with Raven, who is arguably herself the strongest Avatar of all.
As an aside (and I'm not trying to plug my own stuff here, but since it did come up earlier in the thread), this is basically how I'm treating both Brother Blood and Psimon in Family: as Avatars of Trigon. Which was probably already obvious, but in case it wasn't...now you know :P

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 Post subject: Re: Story Ideas: Church of Blood
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:33 am 
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Wow, I've let this thread go ice cold, mainly because I haven't been able to think of anything to add, and I have other commitments.

But I do have something to mull over now, regarding Psimon. His powers come from Trigon, right? How come we've never seen Trigon take advantage of him since the day he gained his powers? Seriously, in the comics Psimon just gets these powers with no strings attached, and the connection to Trigon is ignored right up to the present day. :? Come off it, a deal with the Devil is never ever a free lunch. There's always a price so hefty, and so not worth it, that you'd have to be desperate or insane to accept.

And he's also never hung out with other mystic supervillains, let alone Trigon's other supporters on Earth like Brother Blood. He's just... done his own thing with the Fearsome Five (lame). Its like Wolfman and Perez didn't know what to do with the guy.


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 Post subject: Re: Story Ideas: Church of Blood
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:43 pm 
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snowman1989 wrote:
Wow, I've let this thread go ice cold, mainly because I haven't been able to think of anything to add, and I have other commitments.

But I do have something to mull over now, regarding Psimon. His powers come from Trigon, right? How come we've never seen Trigon take advantage of him since the day he gained his powers? Seriously, in the comics Psimon just gets these powers with no strings attached, and the connection to Trigon is ignored right up to the present day. :? Come off it, a deal with the Devil is never ever a free lunch. There's always a price so hefty, and so not worth it, that you'd have to be desperate or insane to accept.

And he's also never hung out with other mystic supervillains, let alone Trigon's other supporters on Earth like Brother Blood. He's just... done his own thing with the Fearsome Five (lame). Its like Wolfman and Perez didn't know what to do with the guy.
Well, uh...he did nearly kill Lex Luthor in the original Crisis on Infinite Earths, so I guess there's that. :P

More seriously, I've hesitated to comment on this note because I'm using Psimon in a story which very specifically addresses exactly this subject, so I guess I feel like there isn't very much I can say about it without diverting the discussion toward my own work. :oops: Which I don't want to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Story Ideas: Church of Blood
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:50 pm 
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snowman1989 wrote:
Come off it, a deal with the Devil is never ever a free lunch. There's always a price so hefty, and so not worth it, that you'd have to be desperate or insane to accept.
I figure it's usually the marketing that lets the Devil pull it off. Underplay the price, or neglect to mention the interest rate, or method of repayment, or ambiguous wording...or, carry a heavy penalty for defaulting on an otherwise level agreement, then employ agents to prevent the terms of the contract from being fulfilled.

CWS wrote:
...I guess I feel like there isn't very much I can say about it without diverting the discussion toward my own work. :oops: Which I don't want to do.
DISCUSS IT DANG YE

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 Post subject: Re: Story Ideas: Church of Blood
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:20 pm 
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The Phiend wrote:
Okay, fine :P

I do feel obligated to note that the following applies only to my specific interpretation of Psimon, which you are obviously under no obligation to follow. But in the interest of continuing the discussion...

In Family, Psimon is very directly connected to Trigon, perhaps even more so than Brother Blood is, for reasons that will be revealed in an upcoming chapter. His "deal" with the demon, to the extent that there was any sort of legitimate bargain, was not exactly voluntary and cost him much more than "just" his humanity.

With that in mind, one may question why Psimon seems to be so self-serving, particularly when it comes to the potential disruption of Brother Blood's schemes. But the truth is, in so doing, he actually is actively furthering Trigon's larger goals, but in ways that may not be immediately obvious. Psimon is extremely cruel, vindictive, and treacherous, all of which are traits Trigon approves of and seeks to cultivate, because he draws strength from them and from the results of their expression. So, really, as long as Psimon continues to cause misery and strife in general, within certain parameters of course, then he's fulfilling his purpose as far as Trigon is concerned.

That's the blueprint I'm working off of, anyway. ;)

Afterthought: It's actually kind of liberating to deal with an antagonist (Trigon) whose motivations are at once so completely alien, and yet so straightforward, almost to the point of simplicity. :lol:

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Last edited by CWS on Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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