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 Post subject: Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:48 pm 
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*facepalms* I can't believe THAT is what they chose to name the movie. You trying to rub the salt deeper into the wounds, Disney?

Alright. Here's the damn trailer.




Had The Last Jedi not been a thing, or ever existed, I might have been interested. But since The Last Jedi unfortunately DOES exist... I find myself not caring. :| I've never cared so little for a movie before in my life, and it's heartbreaking. Because the last movie ruined Star Wars forever. And the prospect of having Lando and the Emperor return in this movie just makes it worse. We all know, based on the patterns of the previous films, that Lando is going to die an ignominious death. And the Emperor?! His story was done! His story has a clear beginning, middle and end. Bringing him back isn't just lazy writing, it's a sleazy move to prey on our nostalgia!

More and more I hate Disney for retconning the Extended Universe, because it had some great stories that the directors could have taken inspiration from, instead of copy-pasting the original trilogy. They could have done the Yuuzhan Vong Invasion, where an extragalactic enemy with organic ships and major technophobia invade the Star Wars galaxy. Or they could have introduced the World Devastators, giant nigh-invincible mobile war factories built by the Imperial Remnant that consume entire cities and planets to build more ships, more fighters and upgrade themselves. Or the rise of Grand Admiral Thrawn, a military genius with a great love for art, who nearly destroys the New Republic in its infancy.

I'm so fucking angry how they've squandered this universe. :x :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:04 pm 
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I also have very...mixed feelings about Episode VIII, to put it mildly. (In hindsight, I must confess that I think my initial review was overly generous, again putting it mildly.) I'm not quite at the "it ruined Star Wars forever" point with it that you are, but perhaps I'm clinging to a futile sense of optimism. :|

My final opinion of the "sequel trilogy" (the current films) is going to hinge on this movie, I think. If Abrams manages to salvage the storyline and pull off a satisfying conclusion for all nine movies, I would definitely be impressed. I know it's an extraordinarily tall order, and I certainly don't know that he's up to the task...but I'm willing to wait and see.

As for this trailer, however, I have to disagree with you. Personally, I do have to say that it is nice to see Lando again, finally, at least as far as this trailer goes. And what the narration here is suggesting, and what follows it at the end...? That honestly gives me chills. It's long been rumored that Palpatine might return as the Sith equivalent of a Force Ghost in this movie, and for it to be exploring these aspects of the Force more directly is an idea I find very intriguing.

Given the events of the previous movie, however...the title is both baffling and exciting, in its potential implications.

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Last edited by CWS on Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Clarification of a previous statement.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:18 am 
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CWS wrote:
If Abrams manages to salvage the storyline and pull off a satisfying conclusion for all nine movies, I would definitely be impressed. I know it's an extraordinarily tall order, and I certainly don't know that he's up to the task...but I'm willing to wait and see.


I can tell you right now: he's not. He's good at rebooting old franchises and giving old storylines a new lick of paint. That's it. Force Awakens was mediocre and overly safe, but I could see it gave future movies something to build on. Ruin Johnson took what potential there was, and threw it all away for his piece of shit movie. Who are Rey's parents? They're nobodies. Who was Snoke? Irrelevant. Who were the Knights of Ren? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ And how will the Rebels-uh, Resistance fight the Empire- um, First Order when there is nobody left? Abrams is attempting to polish a sloppy, rancid turd, but no matter how much you polish and clean and shine, it is still a turd. He'd have been better off pushing for a hard reboot.

CWS wrote:
As for this trailer, however, I have to disagree with you. Personally, I do have to say that it is nice to see Lando again, finally, at least as far as this trailer goes. And what the narration here is suggesting, and what follows it at the end...? That honestly gives me chills. It's long been rumored that Palpatine might return as the Sith equivalent of a Force Ghost in this movie, and for it to be exploring these aspects of the Force more directly is an idea I find very intriguing.


Yeah, as far as the trailer goes, nice to see Lando. Can't wait to see how they'll fuck him up, as per sequel tradition. :x In the original trilogy Han Solo was a man who evolved from a cold-blooded mercenary who cared only for profit, to a person who cared for his friends, began to fight for a greater cause and fell in love. In the sequels, he reverts back to his old ways, alone, estranged from Leia, and dies a failed father. Luke Skywalker... I'm sorry, I can't. :cry: The pain is still too great. There are plenty of videos on YouTube who can explain better than I ever could how his character was completely bastardised. Poor Mark Hamill.

Palpatine as a spoopy, scary ghost is just... no. :| I understand he's one of the greatest villains of all time, but bringing him back like this would just cheapen his character. Plus, isn't this trilogy meant to be about a new generation? Why can't we have a next-gen villain- oh right, Ruin Johnson killed him. Fuck. :x


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:55 am 
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snowman1989 wrote:
CWS wrote:
If Abrams manages to salvage the storyline and pull off a satisfying conclusion for all nine movies, I would definitely be impressed. I know it's an extraordinarily tall order, and I certainly don't know that he's up to the task...but I'm willing to wait and see.
I can tell you right now: he's not. He's good at rebooting old franchises and giving old storylines a new lick of paint. That's it. Force Awakens was mediocre and overly safe, but I could see it gave future movies something to build on. Ruin Johnson took what potential there was, and threw it all away for his piece of shit movie. Who are Rey's parents? They're nobodies. Who was Snoke? Irrelevant. Who were the Knights of Ren? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ And how will the Rebels-uh, Resistance fight the Empire- um, First Order when there is nobody left? Abrams is attempting to polish a sloppy, rancid turd, but no matter how much you polish and clean and shine, it is still a turd. He'd have been better off pushing for a hard reboot.
I will readily concede that you may be proven right. All I'm saying is, I'm going to wait and see.

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Last edited by CWS on Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Added quote for clarification.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:53 pm 
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Regardless of how this movie turns out, however, I think one thing has already been proven: Disney should never have cut George Lucas out of the loop. Whatever you might think about him personally, whatever your opinion of the prequel trilogy might be, the fact remains that he created Star Wars. Star Wars would not exist without him, and an argument could be made that we may be in the process of finding out that it can't.

They should have at least kept him on as some kind of executive consultant to maintain continuity, and so he could steer them back in the right direction when Kennedy, Abrams and Johnson decided to get "clever".

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:42 am 
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CWS wrote:
Regardless of how this movie turns out, however, I think one thing has already been proven: Disney should never have cut George Lucas out of the loop. Whatever you might think about him personally, whatever your opinion of the prequel trilogy might be, the fact remains that he created Star Wars. Star Wars would not exist without him, and an argument could be made that we may be in the process of finding out that it can't.

They should have at least kept him on as some kind of executive consultant to maintain continuity, and so he could steer them back in the right direction when Kennedy, Abrams and Johnson decided to get "clever".


That's debatable. Most of Luca's original ideas for the franchise were terrible. The reason the original trilogy is so good and the iconic cultural phenomenon it is, is because Lucas was challenged in production. He was surrounded by other, more talented writers, and some of the actors, who saw that many of his ideas wouldn't work and provided alternatives. For instance, in Empire Strikes Back, Han Solo was meant to say "I love you too" to Leia when he about to be frozen in carbonite. But because the writers felt this would be too stock and cliche for Solo, this was changed to a sombre "I know," which works much better with his character.

In the prequels, Lucas didn't butt heads with anyone because he deliberately chose people who wouldn't clash with him. The result was he was surrounded by yes-men who just smiled and nodded, and out of that was born excruciating scenes like the endless meetings, trade negotiations, and the cringe-inducing romance between Padme and Anakin. And Jar-Jar. :x

I don't think you're wrong. I just think you're not exactly right either. Star Wars wasn't made by one man, but by a team. A talented team fighting with their director in a unique dynamic that will never be replicated.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:06 am 
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snowman1989 wrote:
CWS wrote:
Regardless of how this movie turns out, however, I think one thing has already been proven: Disney should never have cut George Lucas out of the loop. Whatever you might think about him personally, whatever your opinion of the prequel trilogy might be, the fact remains that he created Star Wars. Star Wars would not exist without him, and an argument could be made that we may be in the process of finding out that it can't.

They should have at least kept him on as some kind of executive consultant to maintain continuity, and so he could steer them back in the right direction when Kennedy, Abrams and Johnson decided to get "clever".
That's debatable. Most of Luca's original ideas for the franchise were terrible. The reason the original trilogy is so good and the iconic cultural phenomenon it is, is because Lucas was challenged in production. He was surrounded by other, more talented writers, and some of the actors, who saw that many of his ideas wouldn't work and provided alternatives. For instance, in Empire Strikes Back, Han Solo was meant to say "I love you too" to Leia when he about to be frozen in carbonite. But because the writers felt this would be too stock and cliche for Solo, this was changed to a sombre "I know," which works much better with his character.

In the prequels, Lucas didn't butt heads with anyone because he deliberately chose people who wouldn't clash with him. The result was he was surrounded by yes-men who just smiled and nodded, and out of that was born excruciating scenes like the endless meetings, trade negotiations, and the cringe-inducing romance between Padme and Anakin. And Jar-Jar. :x

I don't think you're wrong. I just think you're not exactly right either. Star Wars wasn't made by one man, but by a team. A talented team fighting with their director in a unique dynamic that will never be replicated.
The way I've always heard it told was that the iconic exchange in Empire was an ad lib on Harrison Ford's part, but I get your point.

Even so, it can't be denied that Lucas was the one who had the original vision, and the "team dynamic" you've described could still have been satisfied by keeping him on in some kind of advisory role. Ron Howard even said that he consulted him at one point, albeit unofficially, while finishing Solo.

There is also one interesting counterpoint regarding the most famous and iconic line in Empire. Prior to the movie's actual release, the only people who knew Darth Vader was Luke's father were Lucas, Lawrence Kasdan, Irvin Kershner, Mark Hamill, James Earl Jones, and whoever was in the audio booth when Jones recorded the famous line. This was because nobody trusted David Prowse not to spoil the big revelation ahead of time, so they actually gave him a different line to read when the scene was being shot, that being that it was Obi-Wan who had killed Anakin.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:07 am 
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On a related topic, Phiend asked me to rank all of the Star Wars movies in order of my personal preference. After much thought, I have arrived at the following order:

Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back
Episode IV: A New Hope
Episode III: Revenge of the Sith
Episode VI: Return of the Jedi
Episode II: Attack of the Clones
Rogue One
Episode I: The Phantom Menace
Episode VII: The Force Awakens
Solo
Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

The hardest calls are AotC vs. RO, and TPM vs. TFA. In both of those comparisons, I think each of the movies have certain areas where they are stronger than the other, and others where they are weaker.

This is just my opinion, so feel free to disagree. But I'd appreciate if it you could try to do it without insulting me.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:03 am 
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My opinion is more or less the same on rankings, except I'd rate Return of the Jedi above Revenge of the Sith. While Jedi is the weakest of the original three, what with the Luke/Leia retcon and the Ewoks (harbingers of things to come many years later), I'd have a hard time justifying Sith as being better. Sith was darker, but the dialogue was still bad, the Anakin/Padme romance still grates, and Anakin's turn to the Dark Side seems rushed without a proper build-up. The Clone Wars animated series does a much better job foreshadowing Anakin's fall and why he might feel justified in breaking ties with them. Jedi on the whole was much more strongly written with more believable characters, and the final Battle of Endor (despite the Ewoks) is still gripping to watch after all these years.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:21 pm 
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CWS wrote:
On a related topic, Phiend asked me to rank all of the Star Wars movies in order of my personal preference. After much thought, I have arrived at the following order:

Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back
Episode IV: A New Hope
Episode III: Revenge of the Sith
Episode VI: Return of the Jedi
Episode II: Attack of the Clones
Rogue One
Episode I: The Phantom Menace
Episode VII: The Force Awakens
Solo
Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Huh. Looks a lot like mine, if I ignore the movies I haven't seen :P

  • Empire Strikes Back
  • New Hope
  • Return of the Jedi
  • Revenge of the Sith
  • Phantom Menace
  • Attack of the Clones
  • Force Awakens

Return of the Jedi and Revenge of the Sith are pretty close....In multiple ways; Revenge of the Sith (like the other prequels) tries too hard to rush past the story it should have been telling, whereas Return of the Jedi...I've always felt like the movie should've ended after they get everyone off Tatooine. I'm not sure how much of that is impressions from back when I consciously watched it the first time three decades ago, and how much of that is a lack of integration between Tatooine and the rest of the movie...or, I suppose, if each portion had enough going on that they could've been made into movies in their own right.

Anyway, Force Awakens left me without any real desire to watch Last Jedi...so I have no idea what I'm supposed to feel about the Rise of Skywalker, unless it involves coffee.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 1:18 am 
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I think you've both kind of alluded to the reasons Revenge of the Sith narrowly edges out Return of the Jedi, for me. What it really comes down to is that after Tattooine, Jedi almost seems to split into at least three completely different and largely unrelated movies. There's the Rebel fleet vs. the Imperial fleet, which even today remains one of, if not the greatest space battle in cinematic history. There's Luke, Vader, and Palpatine in the Emperor's throne room, which truly feels like the moment Luke's entire journey has been leading up to, and is hands down the single most riveting scene in the entire trilogy. And then...there's Endor. Where a tribe of teddy bears are beating up Stormtroopers for some reason. Which was admittedly pretty entertaining when I was five, but objectively speaking, it ultimately ends up being an unwanted and frankly rather annoying distraction from the much more compelling events happening above. And it takes up a big chunk of the movie.

Sith, meanwhile, is certainly not without its flaws, but its narrative is at least a bit more consistent, and it does contain enough "wow" moments to put it ever-so-slightly higher in my personal ranking. It starts with a space battle that's nearly as spectacular as the one in Jedi, it finally gives us the Wookiee army we missed out on in Jedi, and we get to see the Clones showing what total badasses they really were in multiple scenes. More importantly, Sith is built around not just one, not even two, but the three greatest lightsaber duels in all of Star Wars. Character interaction and dialogue may be Lucas's weaknesses, but choreography and cinematography are unquestionably his greatest strengths.

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